Just an idea...

[theone]

Hi everyone!
I was surprised a while back when the development of a L2J client started, pleasantly surprised!
Lately, with L2 becoming free, and after having a long conversation with a friend who's a L2J server admin, I realized something. Maybe I'm wrong... it's up to you to decide

At this point, the survival of L2J, since L2 is free now, will probably depend on private servers that have higher rates than official and/or custom stuff that you dont find on official servers. And this brought me back to the idea of the L2J client... creating a brand new game on the foundations of L2J.

Currently we use the official client, which is fine and contains everything needed to make a brand new game.
I'd like to propose a side-project, if there are interested devs who'd like to look into this:
Creating, from scratch, a brand new L2-like game. That is, using the official client (until a L2J client is in a mature enough state) to create a brand new mmorpg that would be unique to L2J!

This should be done, obviously, in steps, like all the mmorpg we know today:
- Think of and write down a good story line (this is certainly the most important part, since it would affect every other step of development)
- Figure out how the game play will be, what kind of game play would be the "coolest"
- Strip all the datapack and L2-specific stuff from the current L2J code (bring back L2J to its very basic components, and clean them up once that's done, it should be much easier to do when most of the code has been removed!)
- Choose a L2 client version and stick to that version (to avoid having to update packets, etc... while coding the new game)
- Lock down most of the map (so it's not accessible by players) and keep only a certain portion for v.1 of the game, and unlock parts of the map as new versions are ready (just like any normal mmorpg which add regions as new versions come out). This would also help make the world look more populated in early versions, until the game picks up.
- Start coding the server and dp
- Release a beta version
- Release v.1 stable
- Keep working on later releases.

I believe that this could bring back alot of interest in L2J.
I'm NOT talking here about starting a new fork, I'm talking about L2J evolving to become its own game! So please dont send me PMs with "can I join?"... it will be up to the L2J team to decide if this is a good idea or not. After all, L2J is their baby, not mine!

Anyway, this is, in my opinion, the next logical step in L2J's development. With the loss of interest from alot of devs and players in L2 private servers and L2J, I think this community needs a boost of motivation, and what better than starting a project from scratch to do that?! Arent we all tired of just "copying what's done on retail"? I think it's time we show "retail" what we're really made of

The L2J team and community have everything needed to do this:
- Gifted devs (Zoey, UnAfraid and alot of contributors)
- Experienced mmorpg retail players (Aiki and many others) who could act as advisers and testers

That was just my 2 cents... I'll let you guys be the judges!

[Gladicek]

If i get that point, you want to make new game with using L2 client?

[theone]

If i get that point, you want to make new game with using L2 client?

And the L2J server (stripped down from all that is L2... just the basic components would stay: quest engine, script engine, skill engine, packet engine, etc...). A brand new mmorpg => L2J... or L2JEvolution? (just a name idea )
But I'm NOT proposing a fork as I said before, I'm not interested in these things anymore

[Gladicek]

That idea is not bad. But with official client you cant make modifications like for quest info (etc..) in game if i remember right (if that game should be something another that old boring L2). Talking/doing these things with client are prohibited in L2J

[theone]

There's no need to actually modify the client imho.
The quests, etc... can all be changed completely, as well as their locations, the stores, and pretty much everything in game. Nothing is fixed, I used to make custom quests/regions/raids/etc all the time when I was developing for a server and without the need to do any client modding.

The only thing we would be stuck with are the items and item names, but that's not so much an obstacle since they are items that players are already used to. Their use, stats, etc... would need to be changed of course, to fit the new game requirements.

Obviously, this "minor setback" goes away as soon as a mature L2J client becomes available

[jurchiks]

The thing is that L2J's code is very specific to L2 and IMHO it would be much better to make the server from scratch in sync with the client. That way it would be possible to use the best known programming practices and innovative ideas instead of sticking with "the old works so why bother" policy, not to mention adapting the server perfectly for the client according to the requirements/needs.

That's for the code part, now about the storyline and gameplay - that will certainly require some gifted people if you want to make a reasonably interesting game. I haven't seen almost any roleplayers around here for the time I've been here and IMHO an RPG is not an RPG without role-playing elements. Nobody wants to play a pure pvp game where dialogs with NPCs consist of just "do this > ok, do that > ok".

Anyway, this is an idea that would require months just to work on a concept, and only then should you move on to more concrete ideas and some pseudo-code. Just sayin', but if anyone has the time+patience+motivation+LOTS OF IDEAS - good luck.

[theone]

The thing is that L2J's code is very specific to L2 and IMHO it would be much better to make the server from scratch in sync with the client. That way it would be possible to use the best known programming practices and innovative ideas instead of sticking with "the old works so why bother" policy, not to mention adapting the server perfectly for the client according to the requirements/needs.

That's why I said it would require to strip the current code down to its very basic elements (i.e.: remove anything Lineage2-specific and keep the main core components only... and re-write whatever parts of the code that's left and deemed not worthy). In essence, the main core parts of L2J are not bad code (and with the skill engine getting a complete re-work, it will help with the cleanup of one of those main parts). It's mainly what was added over the years which has become a mess of spaghetti code (i.e.: all the /model/*/* classes and many others...)
What would need to remain (everything else would need to go):
- Skill engine
- Script engine (instead of the current quest engine)
- Database engine (L2DatabaseFactory)
- ThreadPoolManager
- Xml parser (could be made modular for more flexibility...)
- Packet engine (and packet structure)
- Geoeditor
- IdFactory (could be redone... but works fine as is)
- The very very basic stuff for players (i.e.: movement, appearance) - but a complete re-write of L2PcInstance, L2Playable, etc...
- The very very basic stuff for monsters (i.e.: AI) - but a complete re-write of L2Npc and all its children (and remove some also... )

Of course it's the kind of project that takes alot of time to do, but that's what makes it fun and interesting
As far as RPG gamers, there are a few on this forum that I know of, and I'm sure that we, collectively, know a ton of them who would be interested in getting involved in such a project.
Now about the "... to use the best known programming practices..." part of your post. No offense, I like you jurchiks, but it would be good if you applied this to the code you submit on this forum before you talk about that

Anyway, as I said, it's just an idea.
If it catches on, great! If it doesnt catch on, too bad

[JMD]

I got some pretty good ideas about the history/myth. I can help in that aspect.

[Stake]

About the game style, I prefer action mmo's, like Vindictus that I play nowadays.
There are 5 great points that I like in that game:
- Combo-based combat system, one skill has many combos unlocked in certain levels.
- P2P (peer-to-peer) instances, that if you think deeper, you realize that it's not that bad idea, since an action mmo gameserver can't really bear that much processing. It has too much tick rate, since the server needs to sync aiming and moving with the client.
- Map-based loading, not zones like in an open world game. It can make a huge performance increase mostly due to the p2p protocol. All the checks go through the host (party leader), player info packets however go directly to the rest of players. So, unloading then loading another map is quite fast, since these are at the most as big as an L2 zone, but often just half of it.
- Physics and breakable objects in the game. They are a lot of fun even after a couple of months. Mostly because there are hidden items like Life Erg Crystal that you can find by breaking objects through the instance, and they are valuable!
- Realistic dynamic game style. For example, you can do break-off on bosses. It means, you can break down their horn, hands, legs, etc. Every boss has its own weak point, and also most of the bosses can be stunned by dealing a blow to their head, and you have weak points too. Your head is the most vulnerable to attacks even with a helmet, but broken armor parts could cause more vulnerable points, etc.

I think, if the L2j client tends to go this way, then I'm all for it, as a dev. I used to write programs in D3D, however a couple of months before I started the very basics of an OpenGL game application. I recommend two game engines: Source and Unreal 3.0. The Source engine would be a great choice for physics that matters the most for me, since every other part of the game depends on it.

[theone]

Well, for the moment I just wanted to plant the seed of an idea and see what would come out of it. I believe that such a project could go very well, hand in hand, with the development of the L2J client. And furthermore, if both are done in the same language, both teams could work together very closely and help each other.
As I said, I think personally that L2J, if it was to do this as a "side-project", would need to remain true to its origins and use the L2 client as game client. What you're talking about would require another type of game client or client modding, which is not in the spirit of L2J.
In any case, I'm just another guy making a suggestion about an "L2J original mmo", this might happen, or it might never happen.

[Aikimaniac]

Well..this is not the first time and for sure not the last time when this idea appeared on L2J forums. With this idea are bound also few questions:
- Would be this game/client open source?
- How long it will take to develop it from scratch, how many months, years?
- Is it worth to do it or it is just "excercise" to freshen coding skills to see if something like that is possible?
- Is this the right forum to discuss this idea and to seek for proper and skilled devs?

Lets face the reality (yes im maybe pesimistic) which isnt very positive due points you mentioned in first post. We cannot close our eyes that this project/community is for very long time base on leeching. I dont mean now code or credits stealing, but the fact that 5 percent of L2J users/forum members do create something and the rest is just using their work for their servers or as a base for their projects. I dont blame anyone on this since its Open Source idea. My thoughts are about this that this isnt the right community to start something like that.

[jurchiks]

@Aikimaniac -
Why did you even have to mention leeching at this point?
You killed the mood...

About the first question though - IMO if the server is open source, then there is no reason to keep the client closed source.

@Stake - you're thinking way too far ahead. At this point we should stick to the very basics and not make great plans years into the future.

@theone - maybe you should first finish what you've already started and then get on with this? I don't think you'll be able to pull all of it together right now. This isn't meant to be offensive, of course, just a reasonable suggestion.

But if you still want to go at this, then I believe you should start with deciding on in what programming language will the client be written (I'm not in favor of java; Minecraft is nice but sometimes it lags on my PC more than Deus Ex: Human Revolution (which doesn't lag at all)) and then find people who know something about that language. Then strip the server, make it shiny (or make it from 0 like I would do) and start rolling the client.
Only at that point can there be discussion about how to make stuff. Everything in its own time.

[Evilus]

I suggest you all watch this video, specially the one http://vimeo.com/9270320 . And listen to what he says about reworking stuff.

Basically if you plan to change so much it is probably better to make it from scratch completely. Even if some of you might not want to admit it L2j is not coded that well there is a lot of spaghetti code and A LOT of code bugs(assigning values to vars and never using that value, uncessary return statements, pointless else' redundant code and a lot more). I am not saying that the server files are total crap but if you decided to make something new I suggest starting from scratch and making a proper server. Sure you can copy&paste packets and all that from whatever client you choose to use.

I just don't think it's worth spending time make a new "game" with these server files.

Reworks = no no waste of time
Write from scratch= hell yes!

[smeli]

Maybe it is better to make more natural l2 game?

for example when a fly flies into your room through window. who are you usual do? various things...

what doing usual l2 player in such case? for example fly flies through window of castle. player usually complains: admins, please fix that bug! There must be no flies is castle!

well, in my real room there must be no flies too, but I am not calling admins if such happens
why I must call admins in-game??????????????????????????

[jurchiks]

@smeli - wtf was that supposed to mean? You and your metaphores...
P.S. could you post the russian text below the google translate? It'd make it easier for some people to understand.