To All no l2j projects but l2j based

[MELERIX]

- all is denied (cause custom)

not all is denied, but the speed of contributions ported to SVN depend most of community users feedback, but seems some people just leech and never give feedback.

- if not denied, then ignored (not tested, not commited to beta to be tested etc...)

is generally auto-ignored because lack of test results, and lack of opinions from others devs/community about if (work as should ?, code is ok ?, structure is ok ?, format ok ?, etc...).

- often, sudden, not announced changes, reworks etc, that - except for few ppl that are l2j devs or close to them - noone else is expecting (and force any code he did, to be changed only to be back compatible with clean l2j. latelty at min. once/month rate...)

that is because L2J don't give support about the customizations you could have xD

and about backward compatibility, same happens in others software when "big reworks" are done, all backward compatibility gone (you can see examples of that during this decade in: Windows, Direct X Games or Linux Kernel).

[gmakhs]

So we must do something to improve all this problems(without fightinh) and organize better our work.. thats what i believe...

[MELERIX]

exaclty

[Szponiasty]

- all is denied (cause custom)

not all is denied, but the speed of contributions ported to SVN depend most of community users feedback, but seems some people just leech and never give feedback.

- if not denied, then ignored (not tested, not commited to beta to be tested etc...)

is generally auto-ignored because lack of test results, and lack of opinions from others devs/community about if (work as should ?, code is ok ?, structure is ok ?, format ok ?, etc...).

Ye, thats what I meant U can post fix or anything, and wait 6 months for any feedback (if u even get any...)

- often, sudden, not announced changes, reworks etc, that - except for few ppl that are l2j devs or close to them - noone else is expecting (and force any code he did, to be changed only to be back compatible with clean l2j. latelty at min. once/month rate...)

that is because L2J don't give support about the customizations you could have xD

and about backward compatibility, same happens in others software when "big reworks" are done, all backward compatibility gone (you can see examples of that during this decade in: Windows, Direct X Games or Linux Kernel).

Rly? No backwards compatibility? How come then i can play Quake 2 on Windows 7 with DX11 card?

If some day all quests and scripts are rewritten to java instead of python, you are going to cut all jython support out of core?! U get my point now?

[MELERIX]

Rly? No backwards compatibility? How come then i can play Quake 2 on Windows 7 with DX11 card?

because Q2 uses OpenGL xD

[Sylar88]

GIT can be private too, so at the end is the same.

one bad thing, is that GIT is still not user friendly at GUI side tools, as SVN is.

you can notice that we still have some community users that don't know how use SVN properly, so you can imagine the problem them could have using GIT xD

few months ago, I ported whole L2J Project to GITHUB to give a try, and after few days I notice that interface is not really good, even using EGit, so I switched back to assembla :/

1) Being user friendly is what makes the project get abused. Participating in an open source project is not the same as riding a bicycle. If someone needs an svn or a git startup guide and a compile guide to be able to get the server running he definitely should not use the project at all. This is the main reason why everyone is leeching and noone is contributing. The model the project has disencourages people to try to contribute but encourages them to "steal" the code because the philosophy of " make it easy for everyone to run a server " has allowed that. In other words, this is a serious open source community and the members are expected to be able to open the fucking manual of SVN and Ant and be able to read and understand what it says in there. And im pretty sure all those in here that can code, can do that too.

2) The privacy and private forking is not the topic. Be it svn or git or anything else, regardless of the policy or the software license people will always try to work for themselves. What should be changed is the fact that in-order for someone that is non-leecher to contribute, he has to pass from 10000 layers of protective anti-open-source wall. So he usually gets frustrated, opens up his own svn, makes it private out of frustration and bye bye a candidate new member.

So as a suggestion on that i still insist:

1)Use a distirbuted repository system.
2)Leasen the projects direction to incorporate different perspectives.

[Szponiasty]

Rly? No backwards compatibility? How come then i can play Quake 2 on Windows 7 with DX11 card?

because Q2 uses OpenGL xD

Direct3D too (u can choose in settings)

@Sylar88 switching to git is pointless and does not solve problems we talk about.

[jurchiks]

Jusy my 2 cents here:
GIT might not solve the problems you're talking about here, but it is better for development. The easy local branching would be really helpful for big reworks like the one l2j is doing right now; make a fork, work your magic there, and leave the MAIN branch untouched (and you can always commit stuff to it). When your branch work is finished, you can just merge the main and your branches. Now, l2j progress has stalled for an undefined duration of time because devs work on the one and only code base they have on their PCs.

About EGit: sure, the graphical stuff isn't all bells and whistles, but it is progressing; I've read the recent changelogs on it and some nice stuff has been added since the last time I used it. You can, of course, always just take up Eclipse Plugin development and help them improve it, but that's probably a fat chance.

[Sylar88]

@Szponiasty

The issues you mentionted all derive from the same principle. You believe that some people in the core work in a direction that you think is not good for the project. Huge reworks, rename , move are things some people do becuase they in their opinion priorize them over what you think is essential , necessary and a priority.

So what i suggest is, instead of arguing with each other on what direction l2j development should take, allow it to follow multiple directions. Its common knowledge that we won't agree on what the right direction is because different persons think different. For that purpose a github usage would allow those directions to take seperate ways BUT be able to merge with each other and pull staff when needed.

The problem is not that l2jdevs are following the wrong path. The problem is that there are individual groups who have different opinions on what path should be chosen. Thats why i suggest a distirbuted collaborative system like github.

If for example you wanted to incorporate your AI system, you would simply fork l2j and keep up with the changes you like from it with pulls plus add your own. And then, end users would select which flavor of l2j they would like. Custom lovers would pick yours, some others would pick the vanilla l2j etc.

[Aikimaniac]

SVN was (still is?) till now sufficient for L2J needs for all those years it L2J exists... Moving from SVN to GIT is very questionable and there are for sure pros and also cons but im pretty sure, that there are more ppl outside who use current system and are now satisfied than those few who arent satisfied and would welcome switch to GIT for their own reasons..lets face the truth that there is even group of ppl who have problems to understand our idiot resistant HOW TOs in our wiki to install SVN to get source code... GIT is maybe nice but for now is the change not needed...

regards

Aiki

[Sylar88]

lets face the truth that there is even group of ppl who have problems to understand our idiot resistant HOW TOs in our wiki to install SVN to get source code

And why exactly should the l2j team help those people get their hands in the code ? If they dont get to understand these simple things, they probably wont be even able to do a single useful contribution to the project. Since when is an open source project required to teach every non-programmer how to compile code ? For example in any open source c++ project everyone is expected to know that he has to use the svn client to get the project then ./configure, make , make install. If you go ask those things in the projects forum, they will laugh at you. No actually they wont bother to reply. But in here, we have a complete set of newbie guides so as my granny can host a server too.

Help candidate developers get close to the project, not leecher get their codes and patches to their servers. The second category is not needed. Its parasitic.

[Szponiasty]

I aggree with that. Maybe even all the guides how to get code and setup an server when ur knowledge ends on ability to open web browser or notepad should be removed. Less unworhy clones on l2j servers market, more good servers. More good servers, less competition with worthless ones = more commits from those who actually do sth, not only setup rates, spent cash on advertisement and use donations to earn.

[Aikimaniac]

And why exactly should the l2j team help those people get their hands in the code ? If they dont get to understand these simple things, they probably wont be even able to do a single useful contribution to the project. Since when is an open source project required to teach every non-programmer how to compile code ? For example in any open source c++ project everyone is expected to know that he has to use the svn client to get the project then ./configure, make , make install. If you go ask those things in the projects forum, they will laugh at you. No actually they wont bother to reply. But in here, we have a complete set of newbie guides so as my granny can host a server too.

Help candidate developers get close to the project, not leecher get their codes and patches to their servers. The second category is not needed. Its parasitic.

Well...if somebody has less knowledge as the other, why not help him to improve this? If he is idiot, we cas still ignore him eventualy tell him to fuck off and ban him after he violates rules with spam..etc..But should we realy start to make difference in attitude by handling noob vs handling skilled one ? In the same way we can start to make difference with those whos behaviour is matching our requirements and whos do not. There are tons of criterias which can be used to split "good from evil" but who are we to judge ? Many noobs already improved their skills and they less spam forums with crap so why not help them to be even better ?

I sad to inform you but this project is about community and community work and not only about "better deserve more"...once somebody isnt pleased with this community for his own reasons (leechers...sharing...whatever else)..he can leave and he is not forced to be a part of it... i fully understand your point and respect it but this project was established by L2Chef due reasons ive mentioned (if we like it or not)...even when he isnt around, we still care about his attitude and intentions... uou can accept it or ignore it...

this isnt the first thread with this topic and im pretty sure not the last one...

I aggree with that. Maybe even all the guides how to get code and setup an server when ur knowledge ends on ability to open web browser or notepad should be removed. Less unworhy clones on l2j servers market, more good servers. More good servers, less competition with worthless ones = more commits from those who actually do sth, not only setup rates, spent cash on advertisement and use donations to earn.

Hmm...you mention competition...who can not compete shouldnt start server. Im sure that all those shitty servers and lame server out there wont keep players and they will go to good servers..or ?

[Szponiasty]

And why exactly should the l2j team help those people get their hands in the code ? If they dont get to understand these simple things, they probably wont be even able to do a single useful contribution to the project. Since when is an open source project required to teach every non-programmer how to compile code ? For example in any open source c++ project everyone is expected to know that he has to use the svn client to get the project then ./configure, make , make install. If you go ask those things in the projects forum, they will laugh at you. No actually they wont bother to reply. But in here, we have a complete set of newbie guides so as my granny can host a server too.

Help candidate developers get close to the project, not leecher get their codes and patches to their servers. The second category is not needed. Its parasitic.

Well...if somebody has less knowledge as the other, why not help him to improve this? If he is idiot, we cas still ignore him eventualy tell him to fuck off and ban him after he violates rules with spam..etc..But should we realy start to make difference in attitude by handling noob vs handling skilled one ? In the same way we can start to make difference with those whos behaviour is matching our requirements and whos do not. There are tons of criterias which can be used to split "good from evil" but who are we to judge ? Many noobs already improved their skills and they less spam forums with crap so why not help them to be even better ?

I sad to inform you but this project is about community and community work and not only about "better deserve more"...once somebody isnt pleased with this community for his own reasons (leechers...sharing...whatever else)..he can leave and he is not forced to be a part of it... i fully understand your point and respect it but this project was established by L2Chef due reasons ive mentioned (if we like it or not)...even when he isnt around, we still care about his attitude and intentions... uou can accept it or ignore it...

this isnt the first thread with this topic and im pretty sure not the last one...

I aggree with that. Maybe even all the guides how to get code and setup an server when ur knowledge ends on ability to open web browser or notepad should be removed. Less unworhy clones on l2j servers market, more good servers. More good servers, less competition with worthless ones = more commits from those who actually do sth, not only setup rates, spent cash on advertisement and use donations to earn.

Hmm...you mention competition...who can not compete shouldnt start server. Im sure that all those shitty servers and lame server out there wont keep players and they will go to good servers..or ?

Competition is won by whom has more cash on advertising and gather more players, not by who knows more or makes better server. Players do not care that there might be better servers, due 1) they dont know about them (no ads), 2) they do not go there, due low online (no ads). and so on.

[Aikimaniac]

lol..use your sources (whatever they are, if money or hacking skills) to do what is necessary to get more players..if youre not able to do that, you wont have them..no matter if you pay advertising or not...if youre not able to have players but have features nobody has, problem is somewhere else.. not in advertising....and there is no problem to go to bank, get money, advertise, players come, make donations, go back to bank to payback.. life is a bitch and to QQ cause somebody has donations and has then money for promo is lame... people will be always jealous about others successes...